The Lab Safety Gurus
Discover the secrets to enhancing laboratory safety without the hassle of navigating complex regulations and modifying established practices.
Tune in to the enlightening discussions led by the knowledgeable Dan the Lab Safety Man and infectious disease behaviorist Sean Kaufman. Together, they explore a wide range of lab safety subjects on a weekly basis.
Stay up-to-date with the latest trends and engaging debates surrounding lab safety by tuning in to every episode.
Don't miss out on this valuable resource!
The Lab Safety Gurus
From Mouth Pipettes to Modern Practices: The Revolution of Laboratory Safety Standards
The laboratory safety landscape has transformed dramatically over the decades, yet many challenges persist in creating truly safe working environments. This eye-opening conversation between Dan Scungio and Sean Kaufman delves into the startling history of laboratory practices that once seemed normal but would horrify modern safety professionals.
Dan shares shocking stories from his early career in the 1990s, when students were given "spit strings" to mouth-suction body fluids for testing, and laboratory technicians routinely worked without basic protective equipment. These historical snapshots reveal how far laboratory safety has progressed, while highlighting the persistent challenge: getting laboratory professionals to embrace current safety standards rather than being satisfied that practices are simply "better than before."
The conversation takes a thought-provoking turn when Sean challenges listeners to consider whether absolute rules always serve safety best. He introduces the concept of "practical safety" – acknowledging that laboratories in resource-limited settings may need flexible approaches that focus on risk mitigation rather than rigid adherence to standards designed for well-equipped facilities. This nuanced perspective doesn't excuse unsafe practices but recognizes that safety professionals must sometimes help laboratories do the best they can with available resources.
Both hosts emphasize the critical importance of human factors in laboratory safety, referencing the WHO's 2020 biosafety manual statement that "the best designed and most well-engineered laboratory is only as good as its least competent worker." This recognition shifts focus from engineering controls to behavior, training, and leadership accountability as the most crucial elements in preventing laboratory-associated infections and exposures. The discussion concludes with a heartfelt invitation for listeners facing safety leadership challenges to reach out for support in protecting their valuable laboratory professionals.
Welcome to the Lab Safety Gurus Podcast. I'm Dan Scungio.
Speaker 2:And I'm Sean Kaufman, and together we're providing safety insights for those working in laboratory settings, doing safety together.
Speaker 1:Sean Kaufman, how are you today?
Speaker 2:I'm a little stuffy. A little stuffy, but I'm doing okay. I think I've got the summer blues or some type of summer. I'm not going to say the big word, that includes 19 in it, but I'm not going to do that, I'm just going to say I've got some type of junk over the summer. Do you remember the days, dan, when it would be summertime and nobody ever got sick in the summertime? Yeah, it seemed like that, right, yeah, I miss those days.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it seemed like that right. Yeah, I miss those days. Yeah, I do too. Allergies, sicknesses, let them all go away. Hey, I got something I kind of wanted to talk to you about today and it's you know, it's really kind of interesting. I'm kind of interesting to hear your take on this. You know, I'm kind of old, sean. I've been in laboratory medicine since I graduated in 1990.
Speaker 1:And I can remember in my senior year of college they were teaching us how to charge a hemocytometer in hematology.
Speaker 1:So if you don't know what that is, you got to do a cell count with body fluids or different samples, and you have to pull up some sample and put it in what's called a hemocytometer, a chamber where you can count the cells. It's like a grid chamber where you actually count the cells. And so in my senior year of college they said here's your gift. It is called a spit string, and what you're going to do is you're going to put this in your mouth and you're going to suck up the body fluid. And then you're going to do is you're going to put this in your mouth and you're going to suck up the body fluid and then you're going to spit it back into the chamber to charge your hemocytometer and when you're done you'll rinse the bottom part of the tubing and then you'll put it in a plastic bag and put it back in the drawer in the laboratory for your next use, for your next body fluid, and that was considered the norm for the day.
Speaker 2:Wait, wait, wait, hold on, hold on. I just, I just kind of want to understand what you're saying. You're sucking in somebody else's body fluid.
Speaker 1:Yes, there's a filter at the end in case you know you suck too hard and maybe the fluid gets, gets up toward your mouth because you really don't want to suck it up so far that it becomes a danger to you. But that was how. You really don't want to suck it up so far that it becomes a danger to you, but that was how Dan hold on.
Speaker 2:One sec man hold on hold on now you know I'm not a science guy so I'm more. You know this is a behavioral safety thing. Wait, hold on. What kind of fluids are you sucking up in that straw?
Speaker 1:so synovial fluid, uh like for people who don't know what synovial means Joint fluid like knee fluid, elbow fluid, lung fluid, pericardial fluid, whatever kind of body fluid you can get in the laboratory. Spinal fluid Urine. You typically wouldn't do, you typically would not do a cell count on a urine, but maybe a spinal fluid okay yeah for sure I, I, I, okay, okay, and they gave you this as a college gift.
Speaker 2:That's just awesome. Yes, yes, okay, all right. I mean, I mean, I, I know we used to mouth pipette, there's no doubt I, yes, I know that was there. But sucking body fluids up to a straw, that that just blows me away. It's the same.
Speaker 1:I mean, it's the same. At least with our spit string we had a filter. When you're mouth pipetting with just a pipette, there was no filter at the end of those pipettes. You could accidentally suck in chemical or body fluid or whatever it was, because you know, we just didn't use bulbs in the lab, for whatever reason, but that's where I'm going with this. So, in the lab, for whatever reason, but that's where I'm going with this. So that was 1990, what is it 35 years ago? Yes, and that was the norm.
Speaker 1:So today, my coworker, jason, and I were going around all of our different labs within our organization and we're doing these safety refresher classes, and one of the things we're talking about is a little bit of is how safety has changed over time, because we show these pictures of people and I have pictures of a lady posing while she's mouth pipetting in the laboratory and she's smiling, and it was the norm. She wasn't wearing a lab coat, she was wearing a uniform like a short skirted uniform, because that's what lab techs wore back in the day no gloves, no eye day, no gloves, no eye protection, no face protection, and she's sucking up some sort of chemical from a container that isn't labeled. So there you go. There's picture one. Picture two there's somebody doing performing phlebotomy and there's no gloves in use. And then picture three, from the same era, is a lady working in one of the original biosafety cabinets. It's just a big metal cabinet with a small window, two big holes for your arms, and she's working. It says in the caption with tuberculosis specimens no N95, no gloves, no lab coat, just hands in these giant holes in this cabinet that she's working in. And that was the way it was.
Speaker 1:And so my question usually to the audience after I show those pictures is hey, did these people have happy, healthy careers and did they get to retire and have a good long, healthy, happy retirement? And the answer is I don't know. And if the answer is yes, it's not because they were doing something that was safe, it's because they were lucky. And what happens when I get a lot and I'm trying to get people to go somewhere in their heads with this while talking about it, but what happens a lot is I sort of get derailed in the conversation by our audience sometimes, because what they often will say is well, you know, that was considered okay in that day and that's true. It was started to step in bloodborne pathogen standard. Hey, you need to wear gloves, you need to not mouth pipette, you need to not eat and drink in the laboratory. All of those things started to come into the regulatory realm. And today, you know, things are much different.
Speaker 1:But it's very hard to get the audience to think like, okay, so yes, that was the norm, but it still wasn't okay. You know it's the norm on Highway 95 in Richmond, virginia, to go 80 miles per hour but the speed limit is actually 70. So you've got. You know we like to use the term normalized deviance. We call it, you know we call those practices that all the time, but it's still deviance. You know it's still a problem.
Speaker 1:So how do you get people in the mindset that today things like gum chewing, eating, that still happen in the lab? Not wearing your lab coat or PPE, face protection, eye protection is still a problem, when you've got some long timers who think you know what? It's still better than it was. At least we're not mouth pipetting anymore, like that's where their standard is. So how do you get them to evolve in their head to the next step of realizing that you're still not safe, even though you're not mouth pipetting anymore you still have to wear gloves, and so that's one of the things we're doing. We're showing people the hierarchy of controls and how PPE is the last resort and the least effective blah, blah, blah, all that stuff. So it's been interesting, and we've had some derailments in our presentations because people can't seem to grasp that. Yeah, that was okay back then, but we're better, but we want them to be even better, so how do you get them there?
Speaker 2:well, I think it's a vision. I you know, dan, I also, you know I may throw a wrench in this. I mean, we're about halfway through our time here and I may throw a wrench, let me. Let me ask you this can you mouth pipette safely?
Speaker 1:sure 100. Okay, can you?
Speaker 2:could you? Could you eat in a laboratory safely?
Speaker 1:I could. If I found a way to do it, I could yes so here's the, here's the challenge that we have.
Speaker 2:You and I are talking, I would hope majority of our audience may be, uh, domestic here in the united states, but it could also be international, sure, and like. There's a lab that I remember that I served a long time ago, right in the middle of a jungle and I mean it was super hot, mosquitoes everywhere. It was the only air conditioned venue for I guess almost 30 miles. Only thing that had a refrigerator was the lab refrigerator. Only air conditioned unit was the laboratory. Where do you think those scientists on a 100-degree, massive, humid day, where do you think they're going to have their lunch at? Where do you think they're going to store their food at?
Speaker 1:Yeah, in that refrigerator.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and now you could go in there as a safety professional and be like listen, we're not supposed to do that and that's not safe. You're right, or you have a different approach. The question is can you make it safe? So, for example? Another thing is we know internationally there are still people sniffing plates. Yeah, yeah, they are. Not only are they sniffing plates, but they're sniffing plates to save money because they may have a lack of resources and some may even argue today it's quicker than the technologies that we have.
Speaker 2:The question I have as we revolutionize safety is what's the better question? Size fits all safety approach or do we in essence, teach multiple, multiple approaches safe, you know, and teach people how to do those things safely? It's not by listen and just for the record is I know there may be people listening to this going what is sean promoting that we we did. No, I'm not. I'm not promoting unsafe practices. What I'm promoting is practical safety. What I'm promoting is is what can those we serve do with the resources they have and do safely? That's what I'm promoting. So please, yeah, don't, don't, please don't write me and say, oh my gosh, sean's promoting high risk, crazy behaviors. That's not. That's not what I'm promoting. So you know, dan. Well, you know, you know me, I'm a behavioral science guy, yeah, and?
Speaker 2:And back in december of 2020, who released their biosafety manual, and after 16 long years of serving biosafety, at that time let me read something that just tickled my heart because it actually changed and revolutionized biosafety, at least for me, I was finally felt, I guess, justified. It says this it says a review of recently laboratory associated infections showed that most were caused by human factors rather than malfunctions of engineering controls. Factors that have led to potential and confirmed exposures to biological agents include an absence or improper use of personal protective equipment, inadequate or ignored risk assessments, lack of standard operating procedures, needle stick injuries and or insufficiently trained personnel. It can be argued my favorite statement of all time here we go as we revolutionize safety. It can be argued, therefore, that the best designed and most well-engineered laboratory is only as good as its least competent worker yeah, I, I stand by that.
Speaker 2:Yes, I agree with that 100 so my proposal for revolutionizing revolutionizing safety, dan, as we talk about, okay, where we go from here to where we're going next, is we have to start looking at the human risk factors in a lab, the human elements.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's kind of where I have a little joke. When we're talking about the hierarchy of controls, I'm like, look at this, elimination works great, substitution is fantastic, engineering controls hardly fail unless we use them wrong. But now we get down to administrative controls. And why are they so low on the list? And we're like people, because people stink. People stink at following rules and regulations and policies and procedures and that's where it all goes wrong. And look what's even below that PPE? Again, because people, we don't use it right or we don't use it.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, and I guess that's one of the things we're trying to do in these safety refreshers, as we're calling them, because we even talk about, you know, personal electronic devices, one of my favorite air quote subjects.
Speaker 1:But you know, we have to list, you know, and. But I'm trying to convince people and I think a lot, of, a lot of you know, affecting human or helping people understand their risk, as a human is teaching them the potential consequences, even though they don't face the real consequences of it. So you have to talk about it. Phones and smartwatches and earbuds, contamination risk, fire and explosion risk, distraction and reduced focus risk, electromagnetic interference risk, breach of confidentiality and data security risk. Those are all real risks of using these devices in the laboratory. But we have to tell like you can't just list those things you have to like tell a story about each and every one of them, because I have a story I can tell of each one of those incidents, that's true. So you really have to take the time and spend time with the human in the laboratory. I think and talk about those things in order to help us evolve to the next stage of safety in the lab.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think no doubt the challenges that we have, at least in hearing that you know about what you're going through is how safe is safe enough?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, where is that threshold? And I think there's a lot of listeners out there that may be asking the same questions Like well, you know, and I find it harder, dan, to motivate everybody to be on the same page. That's why I look to organizations and I look to leadership to really set the expectation. Like, look, if you don't want phones in your laboratory, you don't appeal to the laboratory staff. You make a policy and you go to leadership and you say, okay, when someone breaks that policy, what are we going to do to hold that individual accountable? And anytime, leaders come to that table and hold people accountable for not living up to organizational expectations. In my opinion, that's how you get consistent behavioral practices among different people with different perceptions of risk and, really, quite honestly, different behaviors. It has to be leadership. Leadership and accountability have to be present in the laboratory environment.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I agree. I you know and some of the things that you know laboratory safety professionals battle sometimes are our leaders that don't support safety. It's so key you and I both know this we preach this all the time how important it is for the leader to support safety in the laboratory. It makes all the difference in the world. But unfortunately, I also have to teach people how you can support safety without the support of your leadership.
Speaker 2:That's right. I mean, do what you can with what you have, Do your best. And, as I like to say, Dan and we're both men of faith do your best and let God do the rest. And if you're not faithful out there, just do your best and let leadership do the rest.
Speaker 1:Right, and I just say to everybody listening, sean and I both are here to help, and if you struggle with, maybe, a leader who isn't supporting you in the way you want, we have ways to help you, and so please feel free to reach out to us, because we're here to do that. We're here to make sure that your laboratory and laboratorians precious commodities, all that do great work for God and country are kept safe, and that's what we want for you and for all of your coworkers. So let us help you. We're glad to do it.
Speaker 2:Thank you, Dan, so much. It's good talking with you, Good catching up too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, awesome.
Speaker 2:Take care, we are the Lab Safety Gurus, dan Scungio and Sean Kaufman.
Speaker 1:Thank you for letting us do lab safety together.