The Lab Safety Gurus
Discover the secrets to enhancing laboratory safety without the hassle of navigating complex regulations and modifying established practices.
Tune in to the enlightening discussions led by the knowledgeable Dan the Lab Safety Man and infectious disease behaviorist Sean Kaufman. Together, they explore a wide range of lab safety subjects on a weekly basis.
Stay up-to-date with the latest trends and engaging debates surrounding lab safety by tuning in to every episode.
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The Lab Safety Gurus
Making Lab Safety Relatable: Powerful Analogies for Behavior Change
Why do some safety messages stick while others are ignored? The answer lies in how we frame them.
In this enlightening conversation, Dan Scungio and Sean Kaufman explore the art and science of making laboratory safety relatable through powerful analogies that bridge everyday experiences with laboratory practices. They examine why seatbelts became widely adopted not merely through risk awareness but through campaigns like "Click It or Ticket," revealing that behavior is driven primarily by expectations and accountability rather than risk perception alone.
The hosts unpack our troubling tendency to underestimate risks after prolonged exposure—what Sean calls "the human risk factor element." Through vivid analogies involving cell phones, vitamins, and swimming pools, they demonstrate how complacency clouds judgment and creates dangerous blind spots in laboratory settings. Particularly effective is the cell phone comparison: most lab workers who would never place a laboratory phone on their kitchen table regularly place personal phones on contaminated lab surfaces before bringing them to break areas.
Most striking is the critical examination of trust in laboratory management. While laboratories require rigorous competency assessments for technical procedures, safety practices rarely receive the same verification. As Sean poignantly states, "Trust is very dangerous. Hope is an expensive commodity." This disconnect between testing standards and safety protocols represents a fundamental gap that puts laboratory workers at unnecessary risk.
Join us for this thought-provoking discussion that challenges conventional approaches to safety training and offers practical strategies for creating a culture where safety becomes second nature. Have you experienced the normalization of risk in your workplace? We'd love to hear your stories and solutions!
Welcome to the Lab Safety Gurus Podcast. I'm Dan Scungio.
Speaker 2:And I'm Sean Coffman, and together we're providing safety insights for those working in laboratory settings, doing safety together.
Speaker 1:Hey Sean Coffman, how are you doing today?
Speaker 2:I'm doing great, dan. I'm trying to wait until the dust kind of settles. I think the political climate out there is still a little crazy, so I'm just kind of treading water right now until I understand where we're going and what we're doing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've actually had some people asking me recently about you know how does this affect lab safety? With all these changes, there may be fewer people who have oversight in these organizations. Does that mean we don't have to worry about safety as much? I sort of laugh like no, that's not what we do. That's not what we do.
Speaker 2:Don't worry about safety. Oh my goodness, gracious so.
Speaker 1:But you know. So I've had some thoughts on my mind about teaching lab safety and making it relatable to the people who are working in the labs today, because, you know, whether we have regulatory agencies downsizing or not, we still have accreditation agencies, we still have safety that we have to follow so that we can go home at night to our families and friends and be safe and healthy and happy, which is what our goal should always be. So, you know, trying to, like I said, make it more relatable to people, and I've found that I'm really bad at coming up with good analogies for people, and that's one of the things that you've always been good with Sean and somebody else I work with in safety, jason Nagy. He's also very good at coming up with these analogies, that sort of humanize lab safety, and so I'm hoping I can get some insight as to how you come up with these things.
Speaker 1:So one of the things I know that you have said before in your talks is you'll ask people hey, do you wear your seatbelt? You'll just start a conversation like that and everybody's like, yeah, of course we do. And then the next question is why do you wear your seat belt? Well, just in case we're in an accident and so that immediately for a safety person. You know I can relate that right away to well, that's why you wear PPE, just in case. You know, take that phrasing just in case, and make sure you're thinking that way in the laboratory. Now there are some people who wear their seat belt, like my father did, because it was the law. He didn't grow up having to wear the seat belt, yeah, and he only. At first. He would only throw it over his shoulder and not click it, because he just wanted, didn't want a ticket, but then eventually he learned. But I'm young enough that I pretty much always have worn my seatbelt once it became law. I remember when it wasn't, but I don't do it because it's the law I do it-.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, Dan, that's not what science says.
Speaker 1:What does science say?
Speaker 2:That's not what behavioral science says. See, when there was no law and there was no requirement, you know, when there was no law and there was no requirement, you would assume that, well then, it must be risk driven. But I can assure you that the cars that your dad drove and that we were riding in when we were children, they did not have anti-lock brakes, they did not have airbags, we did not have well-designed roads, no, so risk was not the driver for behavior. What is the driver for behavior specific to safety is expectations and accountability to those expectations Because, quite honestly, safety means that you're going to have to take some extra precautions to provide additional redundancies to protect your health, and a lot of us believe that. Well, some people are yes, I'm going to do that because I love to do it.
Speaker 2:That's about 10% of the world, dan. Yeah, that's it, 90% of the world, dan. They just want to get the job done and go home, and what they don't understand is that, as a human being, initially, I mean, I see these videos now on TikTok where these babies are grabbing snakes, and the premise behind the TikTok is that fear is something that is taught. It is something that is learned. It is not something that is you know, that is you know, and so these kids are grabbing these snakes and most of these adults are running away and these little babies are grabbing them and they're moving around. They have like zero fear, zero fear whatsoever.
Speaker 2:And here's the problem. The problem is is that when you are around a risk for a prolonged period of time, the human risk factor element in that is that you begin to underestimate the bite of that risk. And when you begin to underestimate the bite of the risk, it's that risk that hurts you. And so you know, in my opinion, in my opinion, people wear seatbelts today, not because they perceive a massive risk, because they do. But what drove that and what drove the perception is the expectation to wear seatbelts. Or you're going to get a ticket, click it, or ticket Dan.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:If we can say that, if we can find a logo like that in a laboratory where it's like merit or you're fired or you're merit trust me they'd be doing everything we ask them to do.
Speaker 1:Okay, so all right. So I've got a couple others here because I want something that's going to make people think about it in real terms. And you know, I don't know Again, you may like these, you may not like these. So far I'm using them a little bit in small group settings and they're going okay. The seatbelt where we end at it, you know we ask people hey, have you been in an accident? A lot of people say no. Then why do you wear your seatbelt? And a lot of people will say just in case. And so we tell them to remember that with PPE in the laboratory, remember that just in case, because accidents happen and you need to be ready at all times.
Speaker 2:That's why your seatbelt's on, whether it's the law or whether you choose to do it for risk. You know what I love about the analogy of the seatbelt, what I love telling people hey, you know what the neat part is? The neat part is you can wear a seat belt, you could follow the law, you can follow the speed limit, you can even make sure your car is well maintained. But the person next to you that isn't wearing a seat belt, is drinking and driving, didn't get a brakes check, has a flat tire, can completely destroy your safety record, because safety is not something that's isolated, it's not in a bubble. It's something that we have to do as a family together, and we teach that too, right.
Speaker 1:Other people's safety behaviors in the department affect your safety as well, and that's why we need to be coaching other people as well while they do it All right. So here's a different analogy. What do you think of this one? So we'll ask the question of the group hey, do you take vitamins? Do you take daily vitamins? A lot of people will say yes, and so the next question is why? Well, because it's healthy.
Speaker 1:Science says it's the right thing to do. We should have a good balance of vitamins and minerals, and so the next question is have you ever been, have you been sick in the last two years? Have you ever gotten a cold, something like that? And a lot of people, of course, are going to say yes, we're going to say so. You're putting your faith into these vitamins and minerals that you're taking to keep you healthy, but they don't keep you healthy 100% of the time, and not that there's a claim that all vitamins are going to prevent everything, but you put your faith in something that might be working for you. So it's time to put your faith in something like engineering, controls and PPE that definitely work for you.
Speaker 1:What do you think of that analogy?
Speaker 2:I mean, I think I mean I like it, I mean I like it. The challenge that I have, dan, in all of this and I love the analogy is that we are assuming that individuals are going to choose what's right, meaning they're going to choose to believe in something that may or may not be working. So here's the deal People take vitamins not because they necessarily work, but because people believe they work. Yeah, and if somebody was taking a vitamin and they didn't believe it was working, then you're gagging the vitamin down and so you're literally going to put it in their mouth and you're going to make them gag on it. So the problem is is that I don't want people in my laboratory this is just my personal opinion I don't want people in my laboratory to say to me well, sean, sean, I'm sorry, I don't believe PPE doesn't work and therefore I'm not going to wear it. By the way, I've had that. I mean, come on, we've had that. I mean we have people still trying to mouth pipette and smell plates.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 2:So I the hard part I'm having is is that safety is something that is expected for the protection, the safety and security of those in the community that surround the lab, those working in the laboratory and the individuals. And the problem we have, dan, is that if somebody says I believe in vitamins and somebody says I don't, and that person who doesn't believe in vitamins says I don't believe in PPE and the other person says I do believe in ppe, then we've got a laboratory that has people doing half and half, and so it yeah the hard part I'm having in safety is the analogies are are outstanding and justifying the need for behavior, but there has to be there's just there's an undercurrent there.
Speaker 2:do you know what I'm going with that?
Speaker 1:I do All right, so I want to give you another one.
Speaker 1:All right, here is the telephone, the landline telephone that's in the laboratory, that gets used in the specimen processing area every day. Would you take that telephone and place it on your kitchen table at home? And everyone immediately says no, that's disgusting. And everyone immediately says no, that's disgusting. Then we turn around and ask the question has anyone in the lab placed their cell phone on the laboratory counter? And then you've seen them place their cell phone on your break room table. Is that any different? Just to get them thinking what's the difference. So what do you think of that as an analogy?
Speaker 2:I love it, and the reason why I love it is the first two analogies were basically trying to justify a particular behavior. This one doesn't. This one basically says are you smart or are you stupid? This one's very clear. I used to use a similar analogy at CDC when I did waterborne disease, because one thing that would bother me, dan and I would observe people is they would jump into a swimming pool and they would bring water into their mouth and they'd spit it out. They spit it out. And so I used to use the analogy that if I got into a bathtub and of course I was naked and I blew my nose in it, and then I had five other people get in there and do the same thing, and then I took a glass and I pulled it out and I said would you swish this in your mouth? People would be like, oh no, that's disgusting. And the reality is that I said, well, when you jump in a pool and you bring water in your mouth, it's exactly what you do. Yeah, and and, and. You could just see these faces like, holy crap, I never thought about that. And so you're.
Speaker 2:When you use an analogy like that, dan, what you're fighting is complacency. Yeah, that analogy is not. It's not. It's. It's not giving people a choice. It's not setting them up to say, well, I don't believe in vitamins or I don't believe in seatbelts. What you're doing here is you say, look, we all have cell phones, let's talk about cell phone behavior, and, and. At that point you're going to say how many people do this? And then who uses a cell phone? After that, and and and? At that point, light bulbs start going off. In my opinion, what you're doing in that analogy, dan, is it's a Socratic method. What you're doing there is you're actually getting people to think about their own personal behaviors and make adjustments in how they perceive the risk. I think that's a great analogy, yeah.
Speaker 1:Okay, so I'm glad I saved the best one to last. You know there have been so many. I've been working on so many different ways to get people thinking about safety in the lab differently in order to figure out what the. You know, I wish I had the key, like you said. If we had the click it for ticket phrase for lab, you know we'd finally have it for lab, you know we'd finally have it.
Speaker 1:You know, another piece that came into place recently had to do with, you know, trust in the laboratory, trust that people are going to do the right thing and the safe thing. And so I always try to look at it from a leadership's point of view, because I was a manager for 11 years in a couple different labs, you know. So I didn't trust that all my lab staff could properly perform a type and cross match, and so how did I make sure that they could do it? We did competency assessments, so we made sure that they were able to do it. There were tests. There are six different methods with a competency assessment, six different ways of assessing competency. There are six different methods with a competency assessment, six different ways of assessing competency. But often managers A don't do competency assessments for safety and they often trust and maybe that's the wrong word or expect that their staff is doing safety.
Speaker 2:They're doing it. They're okay with that.
Speaker 1:I'm not going to trust them with the blood bank work, but I don't do safety competency, so they must be doing that, okay, or I'm just not paying attention.
Speaker 2:Let me use an analogy there, dan. Okay, because trust is very dangerous. Hope is an expensive commodity and what you just said to me breaks my heart. Using this analogy because we have many, many children who every year in the united states, literally around the world and um, and if I throw a swimming party as a parent and I have a bunch of kids over to my house and I interview the kids about their swimming skills, the way we interview, say, scientists about whether they can do a as you, you said what is a cross-functional, I don't know some procedure.
Speaker 2:You acted like a responsible safety manager. You made sure that your staff didn't just say they were competent, but could demonstrate competency. I liken it to the swimming pool party. If I have a child that says I can swim, that's not good enough for me. I'm going to make sure the child can by watching the child, and I'm also going to post people out there that are watching for children too, who get in trouble. Because the problem is is it is trust is such a loaded word because you say, well, I don't trust somebody, I do, and then people get offended because they know that no, no, no, it's a look.
Speaker 2:What I'm doing is is. I'm making sure that I'm controlling for human risk, and there are several types of human risk. Number one, human risk unconscious incompetence. I think I know how to swim, but I don't. Yeah, even though with all my heart I believe I can, I can't. But the second one, to Dan, is perceived mastery, and that's when you believe your skill is better than what it really is, and so you can swim in shallow winds, but when you get to the deep end you can't. And those are human risk factors that require us to assess overall competency. I know we're out of time. What?
Speaker 1:a great topic, dan. We could yeah, I could say a lot more about this. Maybe we need to continue this next time, because here's the rub of what you just said the, the lab standards. The regulatory agencies require competency assessments for testing, but they don't require it for safety.
Speaker 2:Yes, I why exactly that's a such a great point. That's such a great point we'll get there.
Speaker 1:We'll get there, all right, shawn. Well, if you think of any more good analogies I can use uh, please send them my way, because I I can't take credit for most of those, although it was really great talking about them, because I want to make safety relatable at all levels, from management to staff, to everywhere, and that's what we should do, because we're trying to protect everybody. So let's keep doing it. Thanks very much, and we'll talk to you next time.
Speaker 2:We are the Lab Safety Gurus Dan Scungio and Sean Kaufman.
Speaker 1:Thank you for letting us do lab safety together.