The Lab Safety Gurus
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The Lab Safety Gurus
Cellphones in the Lab: Balancing Digital Integration with Safety Protocols
Could our smartphones be jeopardizing the sanctity of lab safety? This episode tackles the hidden infection control risks lurking within our personal electronic devices – think cell phones, earbuds, and smart watches – and the impact they have in laboratory settings. With expert insights from Dan Scungio and Sean Kaufman, we uncover the challenges of devising a 'no cell phones' policy and the anxiety akin to nicotine withdrawal it might trigger. Stepping into the future without compromising on safety, we discuss alternatives like scheduled digital breaks and the provision of lab-dedicated tablets, setting the stage for a harmonious blend of safety protocols and our digital dependencies.
Navigating the murky waters of mobile device usage guidelines in labs, we're struck by the absence of explicit directives in key safety manuals. Yet, we're not left entirely in the dark, as the World Health Organization's Laboratory Biosafety Manual sheds some light on the matter. We dissect the risks associated with device-induced distractions and the paramount importance of maintaining a vigilant commitment to containment and safety. By fostering an ongoing conversation among laboratory professionals, we underscore the urgency of developing and upholding best practices to ensure a secure and efficient work environment, all while embracing the tools of our tech-centric world.
Welcome to the Lab Safety Guru's Podcast. I'm Dan Scungio.
Speaker 2:And I'm Sean Cawthon, and together we're providing safety insights for those working in laboratory settings. Doing safetytogether.
Speaker 1:Well, Sean, today I want to talk about something that is sort of one of the biggest safety issues I have to talk about all the time and I'd love your input on it. I have some input on it and it's the issue of cell phones in the laboratory or personal electronic devices and that includes not just cell phones, earbuds, smart watches, all those things that I think are a big infection control issue in the laboratory.
Speaker 2:Wow, this is a big issue. We're really starting off pretty strong, because I know there are several people out there that are scratching their heads and dealing with this issue all the time, whether they want to or not, because I know firsthand, dan, that there are people out there that have policies no cell phones, and yet those cell phones are being used when no one is looking. So this is a big issue, oh, yeah, yeah, it's a big issue.
Speaker 1:It's a big issue. I mean there are labs out there who have no policies about it. There are other labs out there who have policies that say you know what, you can keep your cell phone on your person, but you know if it rings or vibrates or anything, make sure you take off your gloves and don't create any problems with it. Leave the department before you answer. And right there, you know, to me that's a problem. You're already setting up your staff for failure. No one's going to follow that kind of a policy.
Speaker 2:Well, I saw yeah, I mean, and I also think it's kind of scary, I think that policy is a very loose one and it assumes that human beings are going to behave consistently and, you know, with strong commitment to an SOP, and yet you know we'll get the glove removal in the future. But I have big concerns on how we're teaching people to remove gloves and then leave laboratories without necessarily washing their hands. But let's stay on track. Let's start with cell phones.
Speaker 1:What do you think?
Speaker 2:What do you think a good idea with dealing with cell phones and lab bar?
Speaker 1:You know I'm going to be probably far more black and white about it than others. I don't think they should be in the laboratory. I know I'm old, I'm not a young guy anymore. I worked for many years in labs and my family could reach me in an emergency because we had, you know, these things called landlines in the lab so we could be reached. But I also know that I am that by thinking that way, I'm sort of flying in the face of the world.
Speaker 1:Technology is here today. We need to be able to use it, we need to be able to incorporate it into our workplace, and a cell phone is an important piece of that. But at the same time I also know that it's an infection control risk. People are getting sick because of what? People have been hospitalized because of using cell phones in the laboratory. So it can't be good. So what is the answer?
Speaker 1:In the laboratories where I work, I push for no cell phones. But that doesn't work either these days because these devices are such an important part of our lives. So there are other reasons we use cell phones. It's not just communication and music. Sometimes we need to take a picture and send it to the person who's trying to fix the analyzer on the other end of the phone, or sometimes we need to maybe take a video or something that's going on in the lab. I'm working with that. Actually, in the organization where I work, we're purchasing tablets that can stay in the lab so that we can do those things, but that doesn't really solve all the issues. So I'm kind of black and white about it. But what do you think, sean?
Speaker 2:Yeah, dan, we are in agreement on this one. We may not always agree, but this is something we agree on, and I put a little asterisk on this no cell phones and labs. I think it's important that we understand why people are driven and connected so much to their cell phone. Cell phones are no longer just communication devices. If we do a little bit of behavioral theory in this and we go to social psychologists, you go to Abraham Maslow and his Hierarchive Needs cell phones give people access to food with Uber and all that stuff, and it's almost like you can't breathe without your cell phone these days.
Speaker 2:It gives people a sense of safety, and both security and safety and body and mind. If they have an emergency or somebody in their family belongingness has one, it gives them that connection. It also gives people a connection to their self esteem and value because of the way people interact on social media these days. So the problem is that if we say, stop using phones in laboratories, we're not going to take care of the anxiety that people are going to experience as a separation from those cell phones. Now you did mention some great points.
Speaker 2:Some people need to take photos. Some people actually need cell phone apps to do some work in the lab and I agree 100% that you can buy tablets or cell phones and stay in the lab. It may give people that additional sense of security, but I don't believe they belong in any lab, from the very lower echelon of BSL1 to BSL2, bsl3 and BSL4. I just don't believe they belong in there and I think that if you're going to go with that issue, you're going to have to go back, dan, to something like smoke breaks. I mean, you and I are old enough to remember that roughly every hour, individuals got about a 10 minute smoke break and they got to leave work and go have a 10 minute break. I really think that if you think smoking is addictive, I think cell phones are much more addictive than smoking ever was.
Speaker 2:And I think that if we're going to ban cell phones from labs, it may be time to actually say look at 50 after every hour, take a 10 minute break, leave the lab, check in on your cell phones and come back and I know a lot of people may not like that but, dan, telling people to stop using cell phones in the lab and developing that policy, I guarantee you there are people out there that are just not using the cell phones around people of authority, because I've seen it first hand. They will bring their cell phones in on a day that they need to use their cell phones because, quite honestly, it's just too much to give up.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, and one of the things I do in my role as a lab safety officer. I carry a lab approved camera with me, a digital camera, and it's only used by me, it's only used in the laboratories and I take pictures of safety issues as I'm doing audits, whatever else, and I can't tell you how many times I've been able to take a picture of somebody they thought no authority figure was around, and there I am taking a picture of them using their cell phone. It's very, very common, you know. I think for people who are searching for regulations about this it's tough. I don't know if you know of any Sean in the clinical laboratory world. The regulatory bodies don't say a lot about it. There is the CLSI, the Clinical and Laboratory Standards Institute, and there's a document Clinical Lab Safety it's GP17, and they actually have something in there that says it's dangerous to have cell phones in the lab and you shouldn't have them in there. I was actually on the team that helped write the update to that document years ago and there were no references for us for that, and so we actually found something from I think it was the Oregon State Laboratory Public Health Laboratory in Oregon that actually had a policy that we could use, that we could copy from for the CLSI document. And what's the problem with CLSI? Not a problem. They put out great practice documents for laboratories, but they're guidelines, they're not regulations, so you don't have to follow them if you don't want to.
Speaker 1:So from an OSHA standpoint, people are always asking me hey, what OSHA regulation can I use? What CAP regulation? If you're a CAP accredited laboratory, what regulation are you gonna use? There isn't one. I've been working to make them. I've been working. I've worked with CLSI. I've worked with some ISO documents in my career haven't gotten that in there about cell phones but also have been working with the College of American Pathologists on their regulatory checklist that affects clinical labs. That's not all kinds of labs, but I just I do. I feel strongly that they shouldn't be in there, but I don't know what the answer is.
Speaker 1:So let's talk about smoke breaks and cell phone breaks, because that sounds good and we did use to accommodate that in our workplaces, right? I certainly do remember that I never was a smoker. I used to be jealous of the smoke breaks, but they were important to the smoker right, and they were important for the productivity department. So a cell phone break. Let's say we gave everybody a cell phone break. It'd have to be a different time. So if I'm working in a clinical hospital laboratory, for example, I can't shut down my blood bank for a smoke break. I've got to have somebody available to cover that department. I've got to have somebody to be ready to operate analyzers for staffs that come in from the emergency department. But we do that right. Laboratorians take breaks, they take lunches and we cover each other. So could we do that with electronic e-brakes? I guess we would call them. Maybe we could. I'd like to know if anybody out there's actually doing that. It's not a bad idea. It's helping people meet their needs.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it also I mean what it really does to Dan is it helps them control for these aspects of residual risk. You know human, human risk factors are critical. So when you're looking at complacency or boredom, or fatigue, you know taking a break, scientifically speaking, is actually not a bad idea and actually would, in my opinion, mitigate or, you know, go to control Certain certain aspects. Now I will tell you this you mentioned at the get-go of this session and I think it's important, I think we, I think we need to mention this because you know we're always gonna be pressed by time you talked about smart watches, which I love, and you also mentioned ear buds, or you know, just you know things that you put in In the ears. Let's, let's do both of these. Let's start with smart watches. What's your position on that?
Speaker 1:so I have been unsuccessful in telling people don't wear your smart watches, because if you have one, if you've paid whatever $300 for your smart watch, you're gonna wear it, you want to use it. But if it's in the laboratory I have I have put it in policy that it must be covered, because Even if you're, even a regular watch should be covered by your lab coat and by your gloves. So you should have no access to that device while you're working in the laboratory, while you're in your PPE. I, again, it horrifies me to think about Just touching that, using that. You know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna answer this text, I'm gonna answer this call, whatever it is, and I'm beep, beep, beep. I'm gonna touch this with my glove and then I'm gonna take this watch home tonight and maybe my child is gonna play with it or my grandchild or something, and I, yeah, we don't think of those consequences. So, fitness trackers, smart watches if you want to wear them, great, but they should be totally covered and never accessed while you're in the laboratory. Do you think that's okay?
Speaker 2:No, I, yeah, I think I think that's fantastic. I mean, I think that's a good suggestion. Now, dan, as, as we've been talking, I've been I've been trying to do a little bit of research on my own here. I know, I mean, because you're right, you know I'm sitting here going wait, that that that can't be possible, that there's no regulations on mobile devices in laboratories, like it's just, it can't be right. So I'm sitting here as, as you're talking, literally as you're talking, I'm looking, I'm looking up at the BMBL because I'm like, certainly it's got to be in the BMBL, so it's just, it's got to be. And literally, as I'm typing in right now, I, I found, I found one, so I'm gonna share it with you. I did find one. Okay, good, and and and.
Speaker 2:Here it is, yeah unless proven wrong, and there could be a listener out there that knows the BMBL much better than I do and trust me, I I believe that that is possible. I'm not finding in the BMBL, but I did find something in the fourth edition of the World Health Organization's Bioress management document. So if you go to WHO you go to WHO.
Speaker 2:It's a laboratory biosafety manual, fourth edition, and, and if you search the word mobile on page 29, it says reframed from using portable electronic devices, for example mobile telephones, tablets, laptops, flash drives, memory sticks, cameras and other portable devices. When this is it? When not specifically required for laboratory procedures. The next bullet says Keep portable electronic devices in areas where they cannot easily become contaminated or act as fomites a transmit infection, you know. It goes on further, saying where close proximity of such devices to biological agents is unavoidable, ensure the devices are either protected by a physical barrier or decontaminated before leaving the laboratory. So it looks like WHO and the BMBL and IHCDC. They're not as black and white as you and I are. No, they're not. I don't like it. I just don't like it. I don't even like smart devices in there.
Speaker 2:I will tell you music for repetitive behavior. So if you're doing something over and over and over and over and over again in labs, scientifically speaking, music has been shown to relax the practitioner and actually help them focus. Not become complacent, but help them focus on what they're doing. That's what the science says. But we still have that challenge of ensuring the promise and, dan, that's important to me, laboratory staff have promised to ensure containment, meaning there should not be a fear of infecting themselves or other people outside of containment. They made a promise and to me this could be a high-risk behavior. Cell phones and electronic devices in labs.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I agree with that and that's my concern. That's the only reason I'm passionate about this particular topic, because people are getting sick from these behaviors. It's not really reported well. People don't even know, maybe, why they got sick. There's a CDC report I think it was maybe 2014, where there were about 15 laboratorians across the country that were hospitalized with salmonella typhimurium, and when they interviewed the people, they weren't just cell phones, but they were bringing other items notebooks and pens and stuff that they used in the lab and they were bringing them home, and so they were getting sick and infected from this behavior. So obviously it can happen with a cell phone that we touch in the lab an earbud, a smartwatch, whatever it is. So my concern is for you, the user, who might be using these in the lab. So please, no matter what your policy says, make the right decision. What is the best practice when it comes to using these devices?
Speaker 2:Dan, in closing, I'll tell you this WHO does, on again page 29, say prohibit the use of earphones which can distract personnel and prevent equipment or facility alarms from being heard. And I think that's important, because the first thing you do when there's a spill is you notify everybody in the laboratory. So, anyway, I think we won't be able to solve this issue on a quick podcast, but I think it's something that we bring up and I think it's an important discussion to have. So in closing, dan, thank you again for this conversation. I'll give you the last word, dan. Go for it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thanks, sean. Do the right thing, make the right decision and keep the people in your laboratory safe.
Speaker 2:We are the lab safety gurus Dan Scungill and Sean Kaufman.
Speaker 1:Thank you for letting us do lab safety together.